Curse

Xenomortis · Feb 03, 2009, 01:31 PM // 13:31

That's an unfair comparison. You need to cast SS on 4 different targets, they need to be bunched up and they'll need to be attacking once a second (which is stupidly fast). It would take much more co-ordination to run than a Discord team.
Discord doesn't require the enemy to be doing anything to deal damage.

Well, to be honest, I'm not sure what I've just said is relevant because this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

4 enemy monks you cast with another N/Me 4 x SS

doesn't make sense.

Daesu · Feb 03, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

A competent player may not feel the need for 3 PvE skills, but usually they benefit the build better than other skills. Sometimes however, that isn't the case. They may not also fit into your particular playing style and if you're playing for fun (which is the point of a game), you want a build that is both good and easy and comfortable to play.
Obviously for some areas, optimal builds become much more important and require you to learn how to play them, but such is the way of things.

That makes sense.

Quote:

9 SR can be sufficient depending on your build. If you're throwing expensive hexes as much as possible, then 13 may become much more useful.
Curses at 16 is a bit unecessary and 15 is usually much better (1 att point is not usually worth -40 hp).
Oddly, despite feeling and knowing this, I run a Sup Curses rune...

Agree, 9 to SR can be sufficient, especially if you also bring SoLS. It also depends on the rest of your team. If you have a minion bomber on your team, it helps to make sure that you benefit from your SR to the fullest. This is what makes triple necro hero builds like sabway/discordway so powerful.

AtomicMew · Feb 03, 2009, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

4 enemy monks you cast with another N/Me 4 x SS (18Curses) in lets say hardmode and they dont have hex removal thats about 4x41x4dps = 656

You need 15 discord necros to do the same , [Discord] 1 sec cast + 2 sec recharge

Except you have 1-2 callers doing 500+ dmg each plus stronger than SS nuking with MoP and barbs. I concede that 1-man discordway needs to be modified a bit for healer heavy areas, but 2 man has no problems whatsoever and is faster than ANYTHING.

Chthon · Feb 04, 2009, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

That is just so wrong lol. Name a faster hero/hench setup or 2 man setup. Discordway is pretty much the fastest hero setup in the game and can do all of PvE except for certain elite areas.

High single target dmg, high AoE dmg (MoP, MS, etc) how can you possibly say discordway is mediocre?

Assuming you have the faintest clue how to run AP-MoP, you can far outperform discordway simply by choosing heroes and hench that play into MoP. (Before you say something stupid like "But you can have MoP in discordway!" I'm going to cut you off. Killing the MoP-ed target with Discord is utterly, retardedly counterproductive.)

For a 2-player squad, the fastest setup I'm aware of is AP-MoP teamed with HB-WWA. If the warrior is good at controlling the mob and keeping them tight, it kills entire mobs in 3 sec. Hell of a lot faster than picking the monsters off one-at-a-time in 3 sec each. Even if the warrior doesn't control the mob so well, you can still get enough simultaneous kills to stay far ahead of discordway's pace.

Another 2-player setup that seriously outperforms discordway is AP+MoP plus MM. A good human MM can easily do 230+ DPS (in HM), which is more than the entire discordway squad. The addition of AP-MoP just makes it silly DPS.

A third 2-player team that seriously outperforms discordway is 2x AP-AE-CoP. That reduces entire mobs to puddles in about 4 sec, and the huge AoE blast radius gives you lots of leeway to screw up the monster management. (Heck, just one AP-AE-CoP can outperform discordway if you're skilled at running it.)

In sum, discordway is thoroughly mediocre. It works, but it's much slower than what you could do with a better team build. It's definitely got a place for H+Hing with offensively "weak" classes that you just can't center a team build around -- monk, rit, ele to an extent, derv to an extent -- but it's so far down the list of effective things you can do with a necro that it's not even worth mentioning.

Daenara · Feb 04, 2009, 05:43 AM // 05:43

If you can't keep it nice, don't post it.

AtomicMew · Feb 04, 2009, 08:42 AM // 08:42

I'm not sure why my post was deleted, but I find that just sad. It contained no flames whatsoever, comparing to being called a bonehead by cthon, so I have no idea what happened.

In it, I pretty much showed that MoP nuking is more effective in discordway when put in the hands of a competent player. I also mentioned that discordway is more general, as it can be run by other professions. E.g., 3-4 multiple meteor showers as an Ele.

Let's just agree to disagree.

Peace

Here it is (edited to remove all possible interpretations of flame, although there really was none)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon
Last I checked, the hero AI controls it. Unless, you're disabling and microing all 3 heroes, or not using any conditions on anyone besides the caller.

Heroes have 7 other skills. They don't use discord on recharge. AP caller can do more than half the damage to every target, if needed. Controlling half the damage is more than enough to determine when the creature dies. It would take 2 rounds of discord alone to kill a target, or 7+ seconds. That's more than enough time to use MoP properly (but you don't even need to, considering how fast discordway is).

Quote:

I'd like for you to learn how to manage the monster AI. Not every mob can be balled. But most can.

Why bother?

Quote:

Quote:You failed to read. A good MM's damage has virtually no relation to the base damage on the minions. It's all about armor-ignoring buffs. Against foes with real armor, 20, 30, or even 100 unbuffed minions running around aren't good for any serious damage beyond triggering MoP/Barbs. That's a very nice synergy, but its far less than what you can do with 10 buffed minions that also trigger MoP/Barbs.

Triggering MoP is more than enough damage. If even just half your minions trigger MoP, that's more than enough to decimate a mob. You don't need to buff minions anymore than MoP and death nova, because nothing else is AoE, anyway. If you need single target damage, which happens against healers and bosses, you have barbs.

Quote:

Quote:Now, you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how **** it may be. But I've grow tired of responding to it. Your inability to even imagine that it's possible to kill things (much) faster than discordway is kinda ****, and I've given up on trying to help you see beyond it. I'm done replying to you.

There's a reason everyone in the Heroes/AI forum is a discord fanatic, and the reason is not because they are scrubs or that you are better. The reason is, discord is insanely, stupidly overpowered. The ability to deal unstoppable single target damage to important targets or massive AoE makes discordway pretty much unrivaled for 1 man or 2 man heroway (in terms of speed).

Let me also add that you are the one being mean here, not me. My arguments are solid and you cannot deny the logic.

Also, let's not forget what other classes can do with discordway. I often pair up with an elementalist friend, and seeing 3-4 MS going off at the same time is really quite a sight to see.

Lourens · Feb 04, 2009, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Except you have 1-2 callers doing 500+ dmg each plus stronger than SS nuking with MoP and barbs. I concede that 1-man discordway needs to be modified a bit for healer heavy areas, but 2 man has no problems whatsoever and is faster than ANYTHING.

Anyone told you that [[Mark of Pain] and [[Barbs] can also be run on a [[Spiteful spirit] Necro or did i miss something

?

Xenomortis · Feb 04, 2009, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Killing the MoP-ed target with Discord is utterly, retardedly counterproductive.)

Which is exactly why you don't do that. I frequently cast Mark of Pain and EV Assassin on one target, then get my heroes to spam Discord on a different target.
Obviously a dedicated AP-MoP team is going to do more damage against big mobs, but that doesn't make Discord teams mediocre. They're still pretty damn powerful.

Discord may not be spectacularly amazing, it may not be the best. It may not even be excellent, but it's more than 'mediocre'.

Lourens · Feb 04, 2009, 06:50 PM // 18:50

This would work :

12+2 Curses
9+1 Death Magic
9+1 Soul Reaping

[Spiteful spirit][mark of pain][animate bone minions][death nova]

Massive AoE damage and the Marked monster isnt killed that much quicker then the adjacent Monsters

Calista Blackblood · Feb 04, 2009, 07:10 PM // 19:10

@OP: If you're still reading this Go here

This thread is going nowhere but downhill and thus closed..